Fresh Take
Fresh Take is your roundup of all things related to organic and sustainable living. Join Florida Organic Growers staff and guest experts as we discuss everything you need to know about sustainable living, organic agriculture, and how to make the best lifestyle choices that benefit you and the environment. So if you’re an eco-warrior, a dedicated farmer, or just someone looking to make more conscious decisions, tune in to get your Fresh Take.
Fresh Take
Transforming Communities: The Power and Potential of Farmers Markets with Catt Fields-White
Join us for an inspiring conversation with Catt Fields White, founder of Farmers Market Pros and co-host of the Tent Talk podcast, as we celebrate the 25th anniversary of National Farmers Market Week. Discover Catt’s journey from establishing the thriving Little Italy Mercato in San Diego to her ongoing efforts to support new markets. We explore the transformative impact of farmers markets on communities and local economies, delving into challenges farmers face, the importance of authenticity and transparency, and the evolving landscape of farmers markets. Catt offers valuable advice for vendors and market managers on navigating regulations, pricing, marketing, and community engagement.
Catt also shares her work promoting financial sustainability, community engagement, and entrepreneurship through Farmers Market Pros. From online courses to national conferences, her efforts support small farmers and market managers across the US and Canada. As an advocate for local food systems and a member of several farmers market coalitions, Catt's dedication to preserving healthy food options for future generations is truly inspiring. Tune in to gain a wealth of knowledge and insights into the vibrant world of farmers markets. Whether you're a market enthusiast or an aspiring vendor, this episode is a must-listen!
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Welcome to Fresh Take, where we at Florida Organic Growers speak to food systems experts about topics related to organic and sustainable agriculture, healthy lifestyles and the environment. To help us continue our programs at FOG, including our podcast, consider becoming a sponsor. For more information on sponsorship, check out our Get Involved page on our website, wwwfoginfoorg out our Get Involved page on our website, wwwfoginfoorg.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone and welcome to our latest episode of Fresh Take. I am your host, lana Shahabedin, and I am stoked to be covering a topic today that I think everyone listening is truly going to enjoy farmer's market magic. I mean, who doesn't love a good farmer's market? I'm sure our special guest joining us today would agree. She is the founder and CEO of Farmer's Market Pros and Tent Talk podcast co-host, kat Fields-White. Kat, welcome to the show. Oh, thanks for having me on. Thank you for being here. First thought as having you on the show today is you know, do you feel as strongly as I do about? You know the feeling you get when you enter a good farmer's market and it just lightens up your soul.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and I do it several times a week, so just imagine how light my soul is. Yes, it's amazing to see small farmers that I know would not be farming if they couldn't get the advantage of those direct-to-consumer sales. It's amazing to see small food makers that are getting a chance to go into business for themselves at a place with a kind of low barrier to entry Again, something they probably couldn't do a dream, that they couldn't pursue if it wasn't for farmers markets.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I feel like they're just becoming an icon of sorts for local food spaces and communities. And I really want to start us off by highlighting the fact that this month, national Farmers Market Week celebrates its 25th year in the first full week of August. So this year, the event runs from August 4th to the 10th, and we are really lucky to have a real farmers market pro to help us celebrate. So, kat, can you share with us what the highlights of this annual event are and how it contributes to, you know, upholding the critical role of farmers markets in our food system?
Speaker 3:Well, you know, it started somewhat casually 25 years ago with a proclamation by the Secretary of Agriculture, and it continued that way for a very long time, where they would just announce that this was National Farmers Market.
Speaker 3:Coalition adopted it and decided to really run with it and make that proclamation something that everybody was aware of and that farmers markets all over the country could use to highlight how important farmers markets are to communities, to economic impact in local areas and to keeping farmers farming, because it really does make a financial difference in local areas and to keeping farmers farming because it really does make a financial difference.
Speaker 3:This year actually the 25th year is the first year that Congress has passed a resolution, so it's not just Secretary Vilsack at the USDA, but it's all of Congress voted to recognize National Farmers Market Week as an official week, as a way to amplify the importance of farmers markets, and it really gives us a stepping off point to contact local officials or to contact governors and ask them to do a proclamation on a local or state level to recognize that farmers markets are a huge part of what happens, how we feed people, how the economy works, and so we've got a good number of farmers markets all across the country that have managed to do that and then we also use it to just create a sense of fun and a sense of welcoming in our community farmers markets.
Speaker 3:A lot of farmers markets are using our farmers market pros bingo card to help consumers find things at markets. Farmers Farmers Market Coalition puts out amazing temporary tattoos that say I love farmers markets. They wind up on everybody's hands and arms and kids' faces. It just is a nice way for everybody in the country to be celebrating and recognizing farmers markets at the same time.
Speaker 2:I think that's incredible. The fact that we got recognition from Congress. That's a really big deal. I understand you know you have been part of the farmer's market industry for quite some time. You helped start the Little Italy Mercado in 2008. And it's grown into, you know, the largest weekly year round farmer's market in San Diego County, which I just got to visit for the first time about a month ago, and I'm super jealous, did you?
Speaker 2:get to visit the Mercado I. You know I did not have a chance to get to go there and I wish I did, but there it was on my list and a few other things shifted our plans, including the weather. Unfortunately, it was raining a lot the first couple of days that we were there.
Speaker 3:As you know, rain or shine, we're always there, that's true.
Speaker 2:That's true, but I'd love to hear about how that began and what really started your journey.
Speaker 3:Well, I'd had sort of a serial entrepreneurship life. I'd owned a restaurant, I'd been a project manager for a construction company that built restaurants. I published a magazine for independent restaurants, a lot of different careers all centered around food. And because I had published that magazine and had relationships with a lot of chefs and a lot of farmers, when I moved into a very urban area in San Diego and found that there were tons of restaurants but no grocery store, I decided to do something about it and start the Little Italy Mercato Farmers Market in partnership with the local business association. So it started with about a block and a half full of vendors. I knew a lot of farmers in the area and some food makers and it's grown over time. We're 16 years old now. It's now six full city blocks, 200 tents on the street every Saturday and some 22,000 visitors each week. So it really is a large market. In the same neighborhood we have a Wednesday morning market, half the size, probably, half the crowd, nice for the locals.
Speaker 3:I'm in the middle now of developing a market in Chula Vista, which is between central San Diego and the Mexican border, largely Hispanic community. That one's just going into its third year. It's developed nicely 50 or 60 vendors that are there regularly, I mean. But basically it started because I wanted fresh food. In my neighborhood, a woman does not live by calzone alone Lots of great restaurants. We needed some vegetables, so that's how it started and it's just grown from there. That's actually managed by my partner at this point the Little Italy Mercado on the street and we've got a terrific onsite manager in Chula Vista. Most of my time at this point is spent consulting with markets across the country, speaking at conferences. We've got an online class and, of course, running our annual conference for market managers.
Speaker 2:Wow. Well, I mean, your background is truly inspiring. It sounds like you've really dabbled in so many different areas of the food system and I think it really always comes down to well. This is what I wanted in my area. This was not available to me and I brought it to this place, so I love that you kind of pioneered this movement in your region, and I'm curious to know I'm sure there's so many challenges that you've also faced but what has motivated you to continue advocating for and supporting farmers markets in your region?
Speaker 3:Honestly what motivates me to do this, not just where I am in Little Italy or San Diego or California, but all over the country, and recently I've become affiliated with the World Farmers Market Coalition and it's amazing to see the effect that they're having all over the world on helping farmers. Markets that exist everywhere and always have to become more organized and more beneficial to the farmers. But what really keeps me going in all of that is that I've got kids and I've got nine grandkids, and I want to know that as they get older, they're not going to be eating manufactured food or little green pills, that they're actually going to be able to taste a ripe strawberry and have peach juice drip down their chins and eat in a way that's healthy and that's also just beautifully delicious. And I think, unless we pay attention and support our farmers, that could be the outcome, where we're going to be eating goop or gels or or the things that you squeeze out of tubes, as opposed to really fresh, healthy, local food.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really resonate with that and I think you know there's something to be said about building a future that is viable, and you know you mentioned that you have become a consultant and you've traveled the world and you even are the co-host of a different podcast called Tent Talk. So can you share with us the story behind the creation of Farmers Market Pros and the Tent Talk podcast?
Speaker 3:Sure, we started actually with a class called Vendor 101, and we were offering that to vendors that applied to our markets, because a lot of folks that are passionate about farming or passionate about making a beautiful food item are not that schooled in business, and so we wanted to make sure that these small farmers and small food makers could come to the market and not only share with the community what they created, but make a living at it and be sure that they were profitable. And there's a lot to go through. California is more highly regulated than some areas, but we're actually seeing more and not less regulation all the way across the country. So if you're growing something or you're making something, you can't just come pop up a tent. It's not camping. There are myriad permits that you need and a lot of regulations that you need to follow, and many of our startup folks just didn't have that knowledge. So we created a class. We gave it in a classroom for eight years, I think prior to COVID. When COVID happened, we had to stop putting people in a classroom sitting next to each other. So we finally did what we'd been kind of ruminating about for a while and created an online vendor 101 class, and that's been great, because now people all across the country can access it and do regularly. So that taught our brand new folks what they needed to do some good marketing skills, how to manage fundraising, costing, labeling and what we found was many of the farmers and vendors in our markets were saying, oh well, that's great, you've got this really organized education for brand new people. What about us? What about the folks that are still here? How can we get better at what we do? So at that point, farmer's Market Pros expanded into its own organization and now we offer online classes for vendors. We're partnered with a group that does online classes for market managers. We produce an annual conference for market managers, and the Tent Talk podcast started because we know that people learn things a lot of different ways.
Speaker 3:Honestly, I was not a podcast listener and I'm still not much of one. I'm more of a reader. But my daughter and our other associate convinced me that a podcast was the way we needed to go. They said, hey, you've been on radio, it's just like that, it'll be fine. So we started this podcast five years ago. There's now 310, some episodes that are online and available to people, and you would think you'd run out of things to talk about when the podcast is focused on market operations and how small farmers operate. We interview food makers, we interview a lot of market managers and we just never run out of material. There are so many people involved in farmers, markets, so many good stories and the whole system of regulation and marketing skills and things keeps changing, so we've always got something to talk about. It's been really fun because I will go to conferences, say in the UK, and somebody will tap me on the back who's from the Netherlands and say I recognize your voice, I listen to tent talk. So it's really incredible the reach that podcasts can have.
Speaker 3:So good for you keeping yours going and it really is a great way to get to people that maybe don't have the time or the money to travel to conferences or need additional information. As the world changes, podcasts can be really effective.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And congratulations on the 300th mark. You know I just saw that you guys reached that goal this year, so that's really exciting, and five years is another great celebration. So it is something that I myself, I agree with you. At first I was like, oh you know, podcasting, this is a different, totally different world than you know, other avenues of obtaining information, but, just like you said, it has a reach that really can't really be anything else.
Speaker 2:So you know, speaking of the vendor 101, I want to dive into farmers markets 101 and take a step back and define what we really mean when we talk about farmers markets. You know, I know at Florida Organic Growers we operate the Florida Farmers Market Association, which mainly serves as a toolkit and a membership in which farmers markets can be displayed on a map so consumers can find what markets are around their area of residence. So when you are advising people on what a farmer's market should encompass, how do you define that?
Speaker 3:So there's a pretty well-accepted definition that's come from a lot of different places. Farmers Market Coalition calls a farmer's market a public and recurring assembly of farmers or their representatives selling the food that they produce directly to consumers. Usda similar definition Farmer's market is the collection of two or more farm vendors selling agricultural products directly to consumers at a common, recurrent physical location. So that consistent appearance is important. People buy groceries every week. You can't have an annual farmer's market. It's not really a farmer's market.
Speaker 3:Other definitions an area where, on designated days and times, growers and producers of horticultural and agricultural products sell those products directly to the public.
Speaker 3:Many large-scale grocery stores, for instance. Nowadays they know that farmer's markets have grown exponentially and that the number of shoppers getting a significant amount of groceries at farmers markets has grown hugely in the last 20 years a lot since the peak pandemic protocols and so I think we're making them a little bit nervous. They're definitely considering us a competitor at this point, and so you'll see farmers market produce signs in produce departments of very large supermarkets that are actually selling mostly imported produce. Or you know they'll have a couple of local farmers that are in there, but the local farmers are not getting the same economic benefit from being in that big box grocery store as they do at the market, because those grocery stores have all kinds of overhead, they've got trucks, they've got buildings, they've got employees. So what the farmer gets when a piece of produce is sold in that supermarket is eight or nine cents on the dollar, versus getting the whole dollar at a farmer's market.
Speaker 2:Well. So this brings me to a question that I've been thinking about a lot as I've been traversing to different farmer's markets across the state in Florida, which is how do you combat the presence of vendors who are reselling produce that is seemingly local but then you've come to find out that it's actually not and it's coming from different countries outside of the US or you know other, you know organizations or entities. Is there like a filtration system in terms of finding the appropriate vendors at a market, like how do markets actually decide what vendors can show up and be there and what products to carry?
Speaker 3:And I know you're in Florida where there was a kind of an article expose gosh, it must have been eight or nine years ago by now about the fact that you had a lot of resellers at your farmers markets, and I think it was because seasonally you've got times when Florida growers are not growing a wide variety of things. You also had an agricultural commissioner at the time, your state agriculture commissioner, who didn't care. This article talked to him and he said what's the big deal? What does it matter who sells what at farmers markets? I think you've changed since then in Florida. I think Florida through associations like yours and through more education with farmers market managers, I think that's improved.
Speaker 3:But this really varies from area to area. So in California, for instance, where I've actually opened and managed farmers markets, we have extremely strict rules about certified farmers markets. You are only legally allowed to sell at a certified farmers market if you are a producer and the state California Department of Food and Agriculture and its county commissioners do an extremely proactive job of sending inspectors out to farms listing everything that's growing. As a market manager, we're legally responsible in California to make sure that what's on the table matches what's on that certificate. There are enormous fines and penalties for hosting anybody selling fruits and vegetables that they have not produced themselves. They're producer-only markets. There's also producer-only markets in all parts of the country and some of them have that kind of state support Not many of them, honestly. So what we see is folks from the Virginia Farmers Market Association out there in their waiters in farm fields checking on the produce, and we see market managers in Ohio taking trips out to the farms to verify that they're growing what they say they're growing. So it's really a matter of market managers controlling who's in the market, monitoring what they're offering on their tables and making sure that who they have at a farmer's market is in fact a farmer or the farmer's representative.
Speaker 3:Now some states I'm just looking at somebody that just won the American Farmland Trust farmer's market celebration. They're in Kentucky and in Kentucky at least at their market I was just reading their rules this morning the farmers have to sell. At least 80% of what they sell has to be what they've grown. They actually are allowed to resell 20%, but only if it's from other Kentucky farms. So that's kind of a nice compromise. There are farmers that just don't have the bandwidth to come to market, so if another farmer can bring their produce to market. That can be helpful. There's actually a rule in California that lets us cross-certify one farmer to another to cover one other farmer. Again, that farmer has to be inspected. We have to know what they're growing. Nothing can be on the table that's not on the cert.
Speaker 2:I think it's always a matter of educating, continuing the education for consumers, and both growers and consumers alike about just the idea of seasonality and that we can't always access tomatoes every month of the year or you know other products that we typically see year round in a grocery store.
Speaker 3:So I think the communication and transparency, though, is what's key. So we I've actually talked to farmers that have said you know what? I'm okay with the market having a couple of resellers that go to the produce warehouse and sell that, because that keeps my shoppers from buying from me, but then having to make a trip to the grocery store to buy other produce and maybe finding out that it's easier to park there and it's faster to get in and out, so they don't have a problem with that, as long as it's very, very clearly marked.
Speaker 3:So we do see some markets that host some resellers along with farmers, and I think that can be done well as long as you have really good signage that indicates that this section is the produce resale section, here for your convenience, and this section is the actual farmers, because I think consumers need to make their own decisions based on their concerns about the nutrient dense levels of produce. That's really, really fresh. Also, economic decisions have to be made convenience. If they're shopping at a farmer's market and they still need some things from the grocery store, can we make it a one-stop shopping experience for them? So I think there's all kinds of ways that this works, but we have to be tremendously transparent and communicative about what's happening here.
Speaker 2:That's a really really good point. I think the transparency with the signage and really illustrating to shoppers what things are, what where they're coming from, is really, really key. So what are some of the other trends that you're seeing lately in the farmer's market industry that you think listeners might want to be aware of?
Speaker 3:We're seeing, as all kinds of folks are including wholesalers, for that matter, and restaurant procurers that our farmers. The average age of farmers in America is very high it's mid-60s. It's gradually now starting to drop, so we need to encourage new farmers to get into farming For a little while there. A few years ago we were really worried that no, you know, no farmers, no farmers markets, that we were running out of farmers. Actually, a lot of farmers are retiring. Many times they have not encouraged their children to keep farming because the economics of it are so scary.
Speaker 3:Climate change has made it much, much harder. So anything we can do to encourage new farmers to move ahead onto the land and to learn those skills and to keep this going is hugely important. So we're seeing a lot of farmers markets that provide farmer training programs or cooperate with a farmer training program to help young people get onto the land and get out there. We've got some strong organizations in the country that are helping to preserve farmland, because it's a huge struggle as farmers age out. They can get so much more money from a developer that wants to take that land and plow a bunch of houses or shopping centers on it. We've got some organizations that are doing a good job of creating agricultural land trusts so that new farmers can keep that land and can keep cultivating that land and keep growing food for all of us.
Speaker 3:I think farmers markets have realized that we have to sort of create a one-stop shopping experience to compete with our competitor, which is the grocery store and not other farmers markets as we like to keep reminding people, and so sections where there's other grocery products available, maybe even a section that's separated from the farmers, that's offering some gift and craft and household items handmade soap, makers, candles, that kind of thing it can make the experience one in which the shopper wants to stay there longer and wants to do more of their shopping. The more we can keep people shopping local and direct from producers, the better. So I think that's something of a trend. We're seeing a lot of weekday markets that are thriving.
Speaker 3:It used to be almost all markets were on Saturdays or Sundays. That's when people are off of work and things. But if you think about it, those grocery stores are open seven days a week, early until late. People shop at all kinds of different times. So we're finding that markets are discovering that you can have a very successful market on a Thursday afternoon, or even, in the case of Little Italy, we started a Wednesday morning market there, thinking that that would be the best time for chefs to shop directly from the market for restaurants, which it is. But we're also finding that a lot of our neighbors like to shop on Wednesday morning. They're working from home now, A lot of people. Their schedules are a little bit more flexible and that weekday morning market has been very, very successful there.
Speaker 2:That's awesome and I love to see these changes in the market times and even seeing new night markets appear, because that's also another time that can really work for the working class and not being able to go during the day or even on a Saturday morning or a Sunday morning able to go during the day or even on a Saturday morning or a Sunday morning. So it's interesting to see how the farmer's market landscape has really evolved and I really am interested in how exactly this has helped boost the local economy for various different places across the country. And I wanted to highlight a statistic, according to a series of case studies cited by the Farmers Market Coalition, that you know, for every dollar we spend at a large chain, about 15 cents stays in the area, while locally owned enterprises like farms and markets drop between 30 to 45 cents. And that showcases double, if not more, of the impact that you can see when shopping at a market or a specific farm. So, in your experience, how has that really shifted the farm world? What has happened as a result of that?
Speaker 3:I think it's changing the way that governing agencies, for instance, and local communities and other local businesses nearby view farmers markets and that they are a boon to an area. They're not competing with the local businesses. They're really helping because farmers market participants hire local people to work their booths and they spend at local restaurants and they spend at local shops and the net profit from selling your items at a farmer's market is kept with the person that's local and selling there, versus very large chains where a lot of times all that net is going back to a corporate headquarters that may be in an entirely different state or even a different country. So that's why so much of the money at farmer's markets stays local versus in a chain situation.
Speaker 2:Right, and you mentioned the fact that even market managers and vendors are shopping, you know, in the same area and sometimes even at their own markets. So I want to dive a little bit deeper into that dynamic with market managers and figuring out, now that there's over 8,000 markets registered in the USDA National Farmers Market Directory, how can managers stand out? What can they do to really make their market really appeasing for people?
Speaker 3:Well, I think a lot of the same concepts that apply to any kind of retail management and psychology of sales applies to farmers markets. So we have had to become much more organized about our marketing efforts and if you're on social media, we remind people that you've got to put your days and times and address, including your city and state. There's a whole bunch of North ports in America. Don't just say North port central park, that we've got to go everywhere from there, which is really the basics making sure that people know where you are to regular contact with your customers. Email is really effective. We suggest a lot of analog marketing in addition to social media. So getting those flyers and posters out, going to your local school's fundraiser and donating a basket of farmer's market produce and items and then tucking flyers into those bags that people visit sponsoring the little league team in your area.
Speaker 3:So a higher level of skill at marketing has become important for managers. One of the big things is just to wrap your head around the fact that you're not competing at your Thursday market with that market on Saturday and you're not competing at your Saturday market with another market on Saturday. That's five or six miles from you, because people tend to grocery shop extremely locally, within one and a half two miles of their homes. When possible, us all together and making sure that we realize that our competitor is not each other, our competitor is a big box grocery store has been really, really important. Our hashtag for our upcoming conference and sort of this year of activity at Farmers Market Pros is hashtag speak up for farmers markets, because we need to let consumers know what the difference is.
Speaker 3:Even my friends and I come from a group of people that has often worked somewhere in food service and I know a lot of chefs, I know a lot of restaurant owners and that's just my background. These are very foodie people. Yeah, I'm a real hit at parties because I will go off on where did you buy that tomato?
Speaker 3:And do you understand that if you bought it at that big box albeit natural, cool big box it's not having the same effect on our food systems as if you bought it from the farmer. And so I think consumers just don't know. They go to farmers markets because they're fun and they go because the food tastes good, but they don't think about how, when they deliberately make the choice to do that, they're having a huge effect on the food system and whether or not farmers can continue to farm and can continue to farm with biodiversity in mind. Because the other thing that happens that big box stores is, by necessity, they're encouraging farmers to breed fruits and vegetables that will ship well and that are durable and that can store for a while, because oftentimes they'll be in the warehouse for a week or two as they gradually make their way into the produce bins in the market. That means that we're losing a lot of biodiversity. That means the blenheim apricot that has a very soft skin, spoils very rapidly but has the most incredible taste, is not being farmed by many people anymore. Most of those trees have been cut down because there's no demand for it from the grocery buyers, but there is demand for it from the farmer's market customer, if we communicate with that customer and tell them, point out to them that there's not only Granny Smith and Red Delicious apples. There's 32 different varieties of apples at my local market in Pennsylvania and they each taste a little bit different and they each have a little bit of different texture and some of them cook well and some of them snack well.
Speaker 3:We really lose that when we rely on the large corporate system to manage what kind of products are coming to our tables. So that's a really important thing and I guess it all really boils down, you know, when you're asking what can we do about it? How do we have to react to this? We have to communicate. So we've got a pin that we give out at our conferences and we hashtag a lot. Our job is weird and it's because a farmer's market manager's job involves making sure cars are not on the street in the morning when the vendors arrive and putting up barricades and making sure that all the permits are applied for and doing self-inspections or dealing with the health department or ag department inspector. There's a million things we got to know how to do. We need to know how to put up a tent and carry a folding table, but one of the big things we need to know how to do is communicate with our customers and make sure that they understand what a huge difference they're making when they shop at the farmer's market.
Speaker 2:I love everything you just said. I mean I think you hit the nail on the head for so many points about, you know, the space of collaboration versus competition, the support and the critical role of managers at farmers markets, the landscape of the vendors and their support for each other. And that's something that I wanted to pick your brain on a little bit is the vendor space. You know we often see a lot of vendors that might be selling the same products, might be competing at the same market, or even different markets on different days. What is your advice for vendors who might need to promote their presence a little bit better at these markets and face increasing competition?
Speaker 3:You know, we do a lot of training with our vendors and actually have some online classes for other vendors across the country to encourage them to treat this like a business, that they're producing a very special product. But they actually need to let people know. People don't just inherently know that your tomato tastes better than the grocery stores. You've got to keep talking about that and so we encourage them to start understanding social media. To get into email, because you own those folks once you've got their email address. To be really consistent about being at markets, because that's one of the ways that you build a customer base is you're constantly there, you're constantly available, you're face-to-face with your customer. But when you say they're competing with the other people selling the same things, that's really the beauty of it at a farmer's market and when you're encouraging biodiversity is that those tomatoes aren't exactly the same. So we're growing so many different varieties of tomatoes in an area when you're working with small farmers who get really excited about new things and new seeds and new varieties and they're each growing. Even if they're in the same basic area, they're each growing in a little bit different soil. The whole terrar concept of how something tastes, based on what's growing near it and what's in the dirt that it's going in makes it different. Each one of them stands out by their own personality.
Speaker 3:The reason people come to farmer's markets initially is because they want to know who produces their food. So at a large market we can have eight or 10 different people selling tomatoes. But one segment of the customer base loves these women farmers that they've gotten to know and that they're encouraging because they're young farmers. And another segment of the customers really loves this farmer that is third generation and they've seen him grow up at the market and now they're seeing him growing his own tomatoes. And one group always goes to this stand that specializes in heirloom tomatoes and is constantly coming up with new varieties every year as they experiment with different things. And some of them go to the tomato stand that has really good decor and knows how to do funny signs on their A-frame. So everybody's got a little bit different product, but everybody's got a way, different personality and honestly, that's what people at the farmer's markets who are shopping want to see. They want to get to know who's creating their food.
Speaker 2:That's a great point. I think that really shines through to a lot of consumers is what's your story? How does your background might differ from this other vendor and building that kind of narrative? And I wonder for the advice that you give out to someone looking to start a farmer's market versus someone looking to start off as a vendor. How does that differ? What does the advice look like between the both of them?
Speaker 3:Well, vendor advice typically is knowing what your regulations are that you're going to have to conform to, understanding truly what the costs are of your product so that you can price it fairly and also price it where you make a profit so that you can afford to keep doing this. I'd say one of the biggest things we're always connecting with vendors on is make sure that you include payment to yourself as you're producing that product in the cost of your product. They have a tendency, especially new vendors, to say oh well, you know sweat equity, I'm not going to put any money in there for labor. Well, if you're going to grow at all and you ever plan to hire somebody to help you, they're not going to do it for free and you need to be paid for what you're doing, because the time you're spending on your own product that's replacing time that you could be working somewhere else to gain income. So you need to be sure to plug that in.
Speaker 3:We work with vendors on presentation. We always say people buy based on the product, the packaging and the people that are with us. So we work very hard with them on making sure that packaging or signage in the case of fresh produce, those kinds of things are strong. And then marketing skills. So the emailing, the social media, the tagging your market in your social media and which means they'll probably repost your posts so that you get a wider spread. So those are the kinds of things we're talking to vendors about. The kind of things we're talking to managers about, especially when they're starting a market, is again regulations managers about, especially when they're starting a market, is again regulations, permits, that kind of thing.
Speaker 3:But also, big time, how you maintain a balance as you grow. So if you're creating a grocery store in the street, you need to make sure that you've got a variety of products. You almost always are smart to provide at least two vendors in any category, because shoppers like choice. And then as you grow and you work, that teeter-totter of more shoppers, more vendors, more shoppers, more vendors again you've got a matrix set up where you're working to balance your market as it grows so that it's not 14 bakeries and one tomato grower. It's some bakers and some granola makers and some jam makers and some hot sauce and three tomato guys and some folks that sell squash and kale and somebody that's got meat and somebody that's got terrific eggs. So that balancing the market as you grow is probably one of the skills that is the toughest to figure out just all on your own, but that actually has methods to its madness and can be taught and can be helped. And then, on top of that, of course, communicate, communicate. Market your market to the public.
Speaker 2:These are all really important tips for our listeners and I want to kind of shift a little bit into what you think the future of farmers markets are looking like, and are there ways to encourage more farmers to be present at these markets and, you know, make the representation more present?
Speaker 3:definitely there's ways to encourage more farmers to be there. I think what a lot of market managers don't realize and a lot of folks don't realize is that, just like consumers don't understand the difference they're making in the food system when they buy at farmers markets, many farmers aren't truly aware of how farmers market works. They don't know what's going on there, they don't know what the pricing structure is, they don't know what the effect on their income is, and I think we maybe haven't done a good enough job of telling farmers that and we need to get better at that. We need to make sure that that farmer that just started that's out there thinking that the only way he can sell his product is through a packing house which pays him a minimal amount for his product that what the economics look like of coming to a farmer's market, and they just don't know Markets will reach out to a farmer and say, oh, you should come to the market. You know it's a great market, we have a lot of customers, but they don't break down the financial impact, and I think we need to get better at that. We need to get better at explaining to farmers what their numbers are going to look like at the end of the day, versus selling through some other means. I think we need to encourage urban farmers. For those of us that are running farmers markets in cities that you don't need even an acre or two acres to grow enough produce to generate income. So I think even people with extremely large backyards and we actually have a very small farmer and we call him a farmer at one of our markets in Philadelphia that grows in pots on a decent sized patio behind its house. So I think urban farming is a big thing.
Speaker 3:Gosh, I'm going to blank on his name now, but there's a guy that runs markets outside of Denver, in Aurora. It's called Rebel Marketplace and his whole program has been to teach people in his neighborhood which is food limited. We just call them food deserts. Now we call them food apartheid, because it's a very intentional thing. A lot of times he's teaching families in his area to grow food for their own families, which used to be just standard. Everybody had a garden for their own family on top of wherever else they acquired food. He's teaching them to do that and then, as they learn to grow on whatever size yard they have, he's teaching them to take the excess and bring it to these farmer's markets that are hyper local, that he runs in this area of Denver. So his farmers there are all people within the actual neighborhood that they're located in and they don't any of them have a ton of produce, but they all have different produce and they come out once a week and they set up as any other farmer's market and they sell and they sell some to their neighbors and there are people coming from other parts of the city to shop there.
Speaker 3:So I think we need to maybe think outside the box in terms of what defines a farmer. There's a lot of different ways to grow and as land becomes more and more expensive, of course it's great if we can create that low barrier to farming, just like we create that low barrier of entry to new businesses at farmers markets. So I think the future is that. I also think the future honestly much as I hate it is probably going to involve some infrastructure. So we have been tremendously successful all over the country for a very long time at doing farmers markets that are intense and that's the name of my conference intense. We love it that way. It makes it easy for people to pop up. It makes it easy to start a farmers market without having a huge amount of money to create physical buildings and infrastructure. But as the climate becomes more and more intense and we've certainly seen that this year we've seen markets that have had to close or shorten their hours because of heat advisories and we've seen markets far beyond what a typical rainy season is having to limit their hours because of intense rainstorms. I think more of us are going to have to look at figuring out ways to get at least overhead pavilions that we can set tables and tents up under, or possibly moving into buildings as we move forward.
Speaker 3:And there's wonderful public markets all over the US. Those are very difficult to start now. Most of the big, successful public markets were started ages ago when farmers used to bring their horses and wagons in from somewhere and pull into this building. Many of them are either owned by municipalities or counties and they allow the market to continue as a nonprofit at a minimal rate per year. Some of them are owned by nonprofit organizations that were started, you know, 100, 110 years ago. Nowadays, with what the real estate prices are in most cities, unless you can get some kind of municipal subsidy, it's very difficult to make the numbers work on that kind of project. So public markets are lovely. Opening them now is a little bit challenging unless you can kind of get that support. But some sort of infrastructure in terms of covering I think may become more important to farmers markets as weather continues to become scary.
Speaker 2:Those are great points and I really enjoyed, actually, your last episode that talked about how to combat this heat that's really taken over the country and, you know, in places like Florida and California we have clearly seen heat being a real issue for quite some time, but it's now really hitting other parts of the country like it never has before. So these are really critical things to think about, I think, when starting farmers markets or thinking about the continuation and the sustainability of some of these markets. So great, great points. And, kat, I wanted to ask if people want to find out more about you and obtain some more insight into your consulting work, where can they check you out?
Speaker 3:They just go to farmersmarketproscom. That'll get you to me. If you click the consultant button, that'll get you directly to me. It'll teach you more about farmers markets. That's definitely designed for folks that are working in the farmers market world. We are not a consumer contact kind of organization, although we are starting a new initiative in 2025 to talk more to consumers as an organized effort to get the word out there. But farmersmarketproscom will get you there. We just opened ticket sales for our 2025 conference for farmers market managers and operators. That's the Intense Conference and that just opened a couple of days ago, so early bird pricing is available on that. You can find that on the website as well, and then, of course, you can follow us at Farmers Market Pros on Instagram or Facebook and listen to Tent Talk, the Farmers Market podcast incredible expertise and insight into the work that you do and the support for farmers markets across the nation.
Speaker 2:Thank you to our listeners for tuning in and supporting your local farmers markets in the area. A huge thank you to Kat for sharing your expertise and for all the work you do to support and grow farmers markets across the nation. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3:Thank you for letting me be here. I love any chance that I have to talk to farmers and to market managers and to shoppers and remind them that farmers markets make a huge difference. We all need to speak up for farmers markets.
Speaker 2:Yes, thank you so much, kat. You've shared some fantastic tips for market managers and vendors, insights into the significance of National Farmers Market Week Week and a look into the future of farmers markets. So, whether you're a market manager, vendor or a passionate market goer, there's so much to take away and apply to your own farmers market experiences. And that brings us to the end of this informative episode. We hope you've enjoyed this deep dive into the vibrant world of farmers markets and gain valuable insights from our wonderful guests. Remember, farmer's markets are more than just a place to buy fresh produce. They're community hubs that foster connections, support local economies and promote sustainable living. So next time you visit your local market, think about the magic and hard work that goes into making it a success. Until next time, keep celebrating and supporting your local farmers markets, stay curious, stay connected and, as always, remember to share our episodes with friends and colleagues to spread the knowledge. Thank you.
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